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Post by madrush on Sept 8, 2018 23:07:56 GMT
Sklo is a generous server, no question about it. However, deed upkeep is an essential aspect of a healthy market. Free upkeep does more than just allow players freedom to build at large, - It creates a market imbalance at traders (no upkeep mean limited resupply) - It removes market incentive (no need to produce and sell things to finance upkeep) - It removes the only natural push back to deed overexpansion
Having even a limited amount of upkeep helps the market be more active: - Players have to raise funds so they have higher incentive to sell things - More merchants and traders - More careful consideration when expanding lands - Less pointless overbreeding (hoarding) of animals because lands costs more - People are more willing to buy/sell animals, because selling supports upkeep, and breeding is less concentrated - Help with GM deed management as it adds a component of natural disband to deeds I believe Sklo would be a better gaming server if upkeep was reinstated. It doesn’t have to be full-cost upkeep. I believe even a 1/10 cost of the regular upkeep would have a positive impact on the server’s market.
How to Soften the Blow for Current Players I understand that a change like this could be a discomfort to players with massive deeds. I would answer with the following points: - We could announce ahead of time, maybe give a month or two for players to start preparing before upkeep is implemented - Players gain silver from traders. Once upkeep is implemented they can buy/use traders to raise funds, because traders will have more money available - Once the upkeep is implemented the market will be more energized and it will be easier to sell things to raise funds
If you are a wealthy player with a massive deed, keep in mind what this means for you. In a world with upkeep: - Traders have more money to buy your things - More rare things will be available to purchase because players have an incentive to get rid of things they don’t need (like fancy shiny things) - More things and labor of all nature will be available to purchase because players of all levels will need to raise funds for upkeep
To be clear, I’m not suggesting we install vanilla upkeeps. I think a heavily discounted upkeep would be a good solution for Sklotopolis.
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Iamyourfather
High Elder
VIP
If only life was simple...
Posts: 1,641
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Post by Iamyourfather on Sept 9, 2018 10:21:00 GMT
This brings along the potential problem of ppl blocking land and open spaces for year's with upkeep. It's a no ty from me....
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dordain
Elder
King of No Pants
Posts: 143
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Post by dordain on Sept 9, 2018 15:58:16 GMT
No thank you. I much much prefer the current set up. If I wanted the Wurm Online rule set I would play Wurm Online. I for one doubt seriously this would improve the economy much and instead would just drive players off the server. No matter what rule set you implement there will still be players who do all the things you describe as problems. Even if public traders had money a very small dedicated portion of the player base would be the ones doing the draining. Leaving the majority out in the cold. Doing this will impact new players the most and I highly doubt would cause the wealth to be spread around.
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Post by elfin on Sept 9, 2018 18:40:20 GMT
No thank you. I much much prefer the current set up. If I wanted the Wurm Online rule set I would play Wurm Online. I for one doubt seriously this would improve the economy much and instead would just drive players off the server. No matter what rule set you implement there will still be players who do all the things you describe as problems. Even if public traders had money a very small dedicated portion of the player base would be the ones doing the draining. Leaving the majority out in the cold. Doing this will impact new players the most and I highly doubt would cause the wealth to be spread around. All of the above. For me it would take fun out of the game. One of the aspects I most enjoy about Sklotopolis is that I have been able to find other ways of playing without the constant worry of upkeep. It has been interesting to see players learn to find other aspects.
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Post by iewie on Sept 9, 2018 19:00:56 GMT
IAM and dordain are right. But the empty coffers are a bit anoying.
Instead of upkeep, how about an option, to pay the reward fot buyring corpses into those kingdom coffers? 50i may sound little, but thats for one corpse. It adds up.
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Post by Gorwst on Sept 9, 2018 21:26:46 GMT
With multiple ways of earning money on Sklotopolis, such as killing mobs, burying corpses, and daily voting, not to mention options like building guard towers or donating to the server, I honestly do not think we need better ways to drain traders.
A player-to-player economy does exist on Sklotopolis. It isn't as robust as Wurm Online's, but a big part of that is because there simply isn't the same size of player base as in the MMO.
I used to spend a lot of my time in Wurm Online focusing on earning money so I could pay for upkeep on a smallish deed. I do not want to go back to that again. As has been said above, it would suck all the fun out of the game.
Besides, with so many free upkeep servers out there, having to pay upkeep might just reduce the number of new players we got here on Sklotopolis. Without new players to replace those who naturally leave, our population will dwindle over time.
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Post by elfin on Sept 10, 2018 1:50:42 GMT
I agree with Gorwst,
Iewie I think those that take time to bury the corpses should reap the reward. The king is happy with no coin. So many ways on Sklo to earn coin. I like the way it is.
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Post by madrush on Sept 10, 2018 3:51:24 GMT
I’m assuming this upkeep idea is not going to come to be. But I’d like to leave notes as food for thought and maybe for future consideration.
Before jumping in, let me be clear about how much money I’m talking about: If you have a massive 100x100 deed, at an upkeep that’s 1/10 of vanilla, you would pay 2s per month. A pretty large 50x50 would pay 50c per month. A free starting deed of 20x20 would pay 8c upkeep.
To me, the main goal here is to provide a stronger market for new players. I’d like you to consider what the game feels like for a new player. There are no NPCs that buy anything because the traders never have any money. In terms of fighting, at start a seal is a powerful opponent, so you can’t really make any money killing and burying. Voting is nice but that’s only 2.5 silvers in 10 days. Most players are well gone before they get their first 2s from voting. Public works are nice but it will be weeks before a player can ql a tower to the 50ql requirement.
If no NPCs can buy their goods, and other players would never want goods at their QL level, what are fresh players supposed to do? As hard as this game is to start, not being able to sell anything makes it even harder.
For all players: Beyond traders having money, I believe that an upkeep would inject some movement to the market. More people would have merchants, the server would have a stronger culture of trade. Overall things would be bought and sold more often, for all players.
A few of my ideas in regards to the points that were brought up:
- potential problem of ppl blocking land and open spaces for year's with upkeep I’d suggest keeping the deed management as-is (or with minor tweaks). Upkeep becomes one more thing, not a protection for 3-month abandoned deeds.
- would just drive players off the server Our current system of a near-dead market with no trader money is driving away many players. It can’t get much worse.
- I highly doubt would cause the wealth to be spread around Taxing wealth is one of the easiest ways to spread the wealth. It’s not perfect, but without it the wealth 100% stays where it is. When it comes to spreading the wealth, any tax by definition would be better than no tax at all.
- A player-to-player economy does exist on Sklotopolis Not for new players. They can only buy. They have little to offer that anybody would buy off them. All they can offer is their services in near slavery. Like hiring them to dig 5k dirt- with no skills and a bad shovel, that is just asking them to get annoyed and quit the game.
- playing without the constant worry of upkeep I understand not wanting to worry about upkeep. However, I’ll share 3 things: 1. For me it is a compromise between enjoying 0 upkeep and not enjoying a near dead market and a lonely world. I would rather pay upkeep if it means bringing better balance to other areas. 2. I’m suggesting a very affordable upkeep. Most of us have an easy time raising funds. Spending a few silvers per month for a massive deed should not be a real problem. Let’s figure out what an appropriate upkeep fee would be, we can keep it low. 3. If it has to be, I’m perfectly fine grandfathering in CAs and other elders. For anyone that has a massive deed and has real concerns about money, I support having that brought up and we can make exceptions before implementing upkeep. (Not in the interest of giving anyone preferential treatment, but in recognition that this would be a major shift and an imposition)
I won't push this topic. I understand Sklo doesn't have upkeep and most players that haven't yet quit are happy with the arrangement. I just ask that you consider my points. I believe upkeep is essential to the health of the market and overall server ecosystem, and even a very minor upkeep would be better than none at all for the health of the server/community.
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Post by Katalinya on Sept 10, 2018 12:20:27 GMT
I know I do not say very much, but I would like to say a few words about this topic. I have played on servers where upkeep is enabled. What inevitably happens is someone who knows how to manipulate traders ends up making sure that public traders are below the ratio to get coins and that their personal trader is above the ratio, so they end up siphoning a majority of the coins from the coffers. The public traders then never have any coin to buy from players without a personal trader. The other point I would like to make is that I do not always have the time to play. Not having upkeep means that I can focus on other things when I am busy, and as long as I log in once a week or so, my deed will be here when I have time to play again. This is much better than having to either start over every few months, spending all your time hunting when you do have time to play, or playing on a private server with no one else. Kat ^..^
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gkkau25
Elder
Groot...grooooooooooooot...groot-groot-groot
Posts: 161
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Post by gkkau25 on Sept 10, 2018 21:27:23 GMT
As for newbies not having money...I may not be a newbie anymore;but we all start there. I still dont make items to sell;so how do I make money when I started: I buried all the dead I could find,stated out killing dogs and cats;then moved up as skill increased. AS for items I need, I stood at my forge and crafted,and crafted...and imped to my eyes bled. AS for some other Items I have, either I found them exploring the map and from dead deeds;or like my armor I found,That was impd up by Encode for me, or paid to get my weapon impd up (from voting and kills/burys). My deed is 50x50 and something in size,all earned and bought 1 piece at a time. Adding deed upkeep will drive people away,what happens to those that take a break and cant pay for the upkeep,dont have the time to go out hunting for coin,or dont want to spec. in an area.More people will leave for other free servers then stay here,and the liekly hood of getting them back is nill,since these people will now be invested in the new servers.
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Post by madrush on Sept 11, 2018 0:48:18 GMT
I said I wouldn't push the topic so I won't. In the interest of clarity help me understand this point: - Adding deed upkeep will drive people away,what happens to those that take a break and cant pay for the upkeep How is minimal upkeep going to drive people away? For a starting deed I'm suggesting 8c/month. You can afford 3 months free with 1 day of voting. Players that are gone for 3 months won't have a deed when they come back anyway. If you have a 50x50 deed, you paid over 20s to get that big. I'm suggesting you pay a monthly upkeep of 50c. Are you suggesting that you would consider quitting the server instead of paying 50c to preserve your 20s deed for 1 month? (when you can simply vote for 2 days and pay for the month for free.)
For most players one or a few days of voting would cover months of upkeep. (And that's without getting into my concept that having upkeep would result in being able to sell more things thus having more funds available.)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2018 3:11:28 GMT
Minor problem with your premise: The trader system was never meant to be used that way and has never correctly functioned that way in wurm's history. Wurm's traders are a poor attempt at removing money from the economy to boost sales of silver with money. The traders have long had a multiplier for handing silver back in preference to traders that were correctly removing purchased currency from the economy. The trader system itself has a long history of not working correctly, with multiple efforts to modify distribution resulting in breaking for months or years at a time throughout.
Personally, I would disband. I never set up a deed because the design of wurm has always been in favor of emptying a player's pockets because it encouraged the use of the microtransactions. I never would have started a deed I couldn't have paid for and I never would have felt like I could pay for it, whether I actually could or not. That mentality would have carried over from WO. I think having no upkeep actually dissolves quite a bit of toxicity that bubbles up from desperation for cash.
Thinking of the children is nice and all, but traders are an inefficient, somewhat complicated, very buggy way to produce entry currency. Upkeep in particular is a second life era manipulative, unethical business practice to corner the consumer into a transaction and I would not wish that on anyone.
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Post by madrush on Sept 11, 2018 4:05:07 GMT
Maybe I have the wrong angle with the upkeep idea. I wanted to provide players with NPCs that will buy goods. (Even with a cap, even at very low prices) Also a form of tax on properties to push back against abusive expansion. Not to stop expansion or massive deeds, but to offer a healthy natural push back. For example, Novus doesn't have wild horses of any kind. If players had to apply even small pause to their expansion decisions, the ecosystem would be healthier overall. Another example: I recently heard a story of a player that wants to grow thousands of tiles just for the heck of it. Another player decided to mess with the first one by using an alt to buy thousands of tiles in the same area. So now you have 2 wealthy long-term players buying tiles they probably won't use, in a race for bragging space. Neither is worried about abusing the server (taking up needless amounts of land) because there is no upkeep. I'm not saying that breeders shouldn't breed to their heart's content. I'm also not saying that bored players with 5g in the bank account should not be able to buy whatever land they wish. But having 0 incentive to put some thought into these decisions is an invitation to do things that are unnatural to an mmo, unhealthy to the server ecosystem.
Another thought: I believe in WO you can sell low ql items to your token (correct me if mistaken). We don't have that feature here. Perhaps that could be a place to start. Let players raise up to something like 25 copper per day selling to their token. I don't particularly prefer this idea because its an artificial way to raise money, those goods are destroyed and don't benefit the market. But at least it would make up for the lack of selling options.
Also, if I haven't given that impression yet, I'm open to better suggestions. A lot of reasons were given as to why upkeep is not a good mechanic in this game. But I haven't seen a lot of proposals to use other means to improve the health of the ecosystem. To summarize, I feel we could do better: letting new players sell things (instead of just buy for the first few weeks), creating some natural push back to massive expansion, injecting more energy into the current nearly-dead market.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2018 5:00:24 GMT
I wanted to provide players with NPCs that will buy goods. (Even with a cap, even at very low prices) This exists in selling to tokens but I believe it is linked to the same pool the traders draw from. It would probably need to be modified to just be a tap from nothing. Also a form of tax on properties to push back against abusive expansion. Not to stop expansion or massive deeds, but to offer a healthy natural push back. For example, Novus doesn't have wild horses of any kind. If players had to apply even small pause to their expansion decisions, the ecosystem would be healthier overall. Citation needed. Upkeep cost has not slowed players in WO from this. Another example: I recently heard a story of a player that wants to grow thousands of tiles just for the heck of it. Another player decided to mess with the first one by using an alt to buy thousands of tiles in the same area. So now you have 2 wealthy long-term players buying tiles they probably won't use, in a race for bragging space. Neither is worried about abusing the server (taking up needless amounts of land) because there is no upkeep. This happens in WO, as well as every other game or server to support land ownership. Upkeep has not prevented it in WO. The only solution I have seen to this is to provide nearly infinite space such as on minecraft servers that allow land ownership. The staff here have gone on record saying they can and will throw up new servers when space becomes an issue. I'm not saying that breeders shouldn't breed to their heart's content. I'm also not saying that bored players with 5g in the bank account should not be able to buy whatever land they wish. But having 0 incentive to put some thought into these decisions is an invitation to do things that are unnatural to an mmo, unhealthy to the server ecosystem. The incentive for thought is the upfront cost. Another thought: I believe in WO you can sell low ql items to your token (correct me if mistaken). We don't have that feature here. Perhaps that could be a place to start. Let players raise up to something like 25 copper per day selling to their token.
[00:49:16] There are apparently no coins in the coffers at the moment. Yeah doesn't currently work. I don't particularly prefer this idea because its an artificial way to raise money, those goods are destroyed and don't benefit the market. But at least it would make up for the lack of selling options. The donation shop offers silver generated artificially into the economy. Mob kills and public works projects are also artificial sources of income. Also, if I haven't given that impression yet, I'm open to better suggestions. A lot of reasons were given as to why upkeep is not a good mechanic in this game. But I haven't seen a lot of proposals to use other means to improve the health of the ecosystem. To summarize, I feel we could do better: letting new players sell things (instead of just buy for the first few weeks), creating some natural push back to massive expansion, injecting more energy into the current nearly-dead market.
That's not really fair though is it? You presented a problem you perceive, you have to champion it. It stands to reason that people who don't like the idea or even just don't perceive the problem need only provide their perspective, opinion, or debunk. Edit: But in good faith I would say problems with growing the community are community problems. The fact of the matter is wurm has a terrible player retention rate and a pace that is incompatible with modern sensibilities. People like to call it a difficulty curve, but the start of the game is really just boring. To that end, I would say the solution is a wurm academy similar to what WO players have done in the past. Direct players asking about how to play, how to make money, etc there and walk them through it. Don't deprive them of help in CA Help, but offer a hands on learning experience. Help them set up a deed but don't pay them. Teach them to fight. Teach them how the public works projects make money. I personally don't think new players need to be buying tools, but if you really do, negotiate with local producers for bulk discounts to sell to these players at cost. Alternatively, negotiate with those sellers to sponsor their products directly in exchange for a discount. This would meaningfully drive competition as well. Heck, if you can prove it actually produces player retention, you may be able to get the staff to back it as a public works project after the ball is rolling with real figures. I personally don't believe this is necessary though. Overwhelmingly players leave due to lack of interest very early on.
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Post by madrush on Sept 11, 2018 5:15:36 GMT
- You presented a problem you perceive, you have to champion it. It stands to reason that people who don't like the idea or even just don't perceive the problem need only provide their perspective, opinion, or debunk.
I think my mistake was assuming the problem was obvious. Perhaps I should start a step before: 1. I believe fresh players can't participate in the market (for the first few days or even weeks). They can't sell anything. They can't kill things worth much. They can't raise significant money doing public works. The majority of inexperienced players will quit the game before they are able to raise a single silver by anything other than voting. If anyone disagrees please give your feedback.
2. I believe that we should strive to have more natural incentives to market activity. Killing and voting help the problem but are artificial. Merchants barely move any goods even at spawn towns. The player-to-player market is very slim. There has to be a way to promote a more natural and active market. If you disagree please voice your ideas.
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