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Post by danky on Jul 8, 2024 21:24:50 GMT
It's been 1.5 years already since the introduction of treasure loot maps on Sklotopolis. Yes it has been quite a while. In that time, the community has had its fair share of feedback for them, both the good and bad. It's been a while now, and I know there's been a decent bit comments on maps 'not being worth it' lately, so I'd like to hear a bit of different feedback this time around, on what would improve them even a little bit.
I should clarify first that I make no guarantees in this thread. If it is fair and within my power I'd do my best to see if it can be done. With that being said, some balance changes I obviously can't accommodate would be making certain rare items (sorcery, bones, etc) more common than they should be, or changing chests back to the old system.
Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to hear; - What makes maps worth doing for you
- What would you like to see more/less of
- What you think of the difficulty of finding maps
- What you think of the difficulty in doing the maps
- The value of low ql maps compared to high ql
Among some things I've heard before that could improve maps would be increasing the 'filler' items that don't hinder your chances of high value items. Putting stuff like quality materials and whatnot inside.
Let me know your thoughts, all of them. If I move forward with anything I'll create another thread for feedback round 2 to see if anything sounds fun. |
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Post by Tolowim on Jul 8, 2024 21:39:34 GMT
I was JOKING about them not being worth it ...
said that in GL turned around and had two very cool chests 40-50 and 50-60 tier.
I don't really have any changes I'd like made, except maybe the next one I run having a few tomes in it, I WANT TO BE A WIZARD!
Or toss in a Gold mirror or two so I can buy one. (this was supposed to be my wifes character)
All in all it's been pretty fun.
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Post by danky on Jul 8, 2024 21:45:20 GMT
Well, my remarks on the feedback certainly aren't targeted. I know at this point some people like to rag on it for the sake of doing so. To be honest I've been wanting to make a thread like this for a little while now, and can do so since I don't have a project in hand right now.
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Post by bluebunny on Jul 8, 2024 23:03:37 GMT
couple things that come to my mind, remove lock picks since they arent worth anything, maybe if possible make the returner chests have a chance to drop something other than tin. and lastly maybe on the higher maps like 90 ql slightly lower the chances of the 10-20ql loot table so that u have a slightly better chance of getting the better things. doing a 90= ql map and getting sleep powder a hota and lock picks is slightly dishearting. still all in all they are more than worth doing but taking some of the feeling of a wasted 90 ql map away would be nice.
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Post by elfin on Jul 9, 2024 2:38:31 GMT
It's been 1.5 years already since the introduction of treasure loot maps on Sklotopolis. Yes it has been quite a while. In that time, the community has had its fair share of feedback for them, both the good and bad. It's been a while now, and I know there's been a decent bit comments on maps 'not being worth it' lately, so I'd like to hear a bit of different feedback this time around, on what would improve them even a little bit.
I should clarify first that I make no guarantees in this thread. If it is fair and within my power I'd do my best to see if it can be done. With that being said, some balance changes I obviously can't accommodate would be making certain rare items (sorcery, bones, etc) more common than they should be, or changing chests back to the old system.
Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to hear; - What makes maps worth doing for you
- What would you like to see more/less of
- What you think of the difficulty of finding maps
- What you think of the difficulty in doing the maps
- The value of low ql maps compared to high ql
Among some things I've heard before that could improve maps would be increasing the 'filler' items that don't hinder your chances of high value items. Putting stuff like quality materials and whatnot inside.
Let me know your thoughts, all of them. If I move forward with anything I'll create another thread for feedback round 2 to see if anything sounds fun. Thanks for this Danky. Having just spent a day or so doing two ql 35 maps on Infinity I have some feedback. Totally agree with Blue re lockpicks let them disappear - so disappointing to have them in the chest. On Infinity with low skill in climbing the map ql1 I got early on was inaccessible and got given away. It was up steep cliff which was impossible to climb or negotiate. Even with higher climb skill the ql35 map was over a steep cliff that I could not climb. I had to spend time going right around the island. - What makes maps worth doing for you - not sure on this one as 99% the ones I have spent time doing are not worth it reward wise. However, sense of completion 100%. Meeting other players 100%. Getting off deed and exploring 100%.
- What would you like to see more/less of - Lock picks, let them disappear.
- What you think of the difficulty of finding maps - for the lower ql maps the difficulty is crazy. I suggest that for maps lq have limited range to find. ql maybe within 100 tiles mainly new characters with low skills get these. Ql50 + high range to find.
- What you think of the difficulty in doing the maps - for new players pretty impossible. For longer time players some are patience building. Generally seems the difficulty balance is good apart from to new players.
- The value of low ql maps compared to high ql - To get 0.01 of hide is a little sad. I have not done comparison nor have I done a lot of maps to have an opinion on this.
Maps have definitely added more of the fun factor to the game.
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Post by sencha on Jul 9, 2024 5:53:23 GMT
Made a suggestion to adjust loot tables a few months ago: discord.com/channels/369096502431449090/1226229555895734362/1226229555895734362Should be removed completely:
- lockpicks (have no function)
- resurrection stones (permanent buff makes them useless)
- craftable pauldrons (can be easily crafted, and you can only wear two, so whats the point of finding them again and again?)
- horse eggs (can be produced in any feasible amounts by making new alts)
- unfinished wagons. those aren't PMK wagons. players with low carpentry skills still won't be able to complete them, and if they could, they also could start a wagon themselves. rare wood types can't be preserved, since there's still more wooden elements to be added.
Limit lowest possible QL:
- mod jewelry (unusable at QL1, so let it start from QL10 at least)
- compasses (QL1 can only go into a waystone and you can get QL30 from a fresh alt any time. let it start from 50?)
Reduce how frequently they appear:
- sleep powder (every single chest has at least one. with many people doing maps SP started flowing into the market at such rate, that prices decreased by an order of magnitude. current prices of 20-30c as compared to shop's 5s mean SP is a trash now. should note that I don't sell SP, so my interest is less junk clogging my inv)
Add a container for liquid:
- transmutation liquid (often left by players in loot chests because they can not put liquid anywhere, making them stay forever)
Need more loot fodder?
- charcoal/steel
- waxing kits
- source crystals (old treasure chests were the main source of source salt to make imbue potions, now it only rarely drops when mining)
- gems (with jewelry mod they got more functions, also always needed for vesseling favor).
For high ql - maybe certain runes (not just random, only actually useful: +mailboxsize, +cartspeed, +gatherql, -horseage - like these. or maybe applicable scavenger runes). - What makes maps worth doing for you A good combination of switching to something else, relaxing exploration and chance to find something good. - What would you like to see more/less of Besides loot table changes, I'd wish less maps led to mountain areas - those can increase the time you spend to find a chest several times. Would be nice to have an option to exchange a map for another of the same ql, but with different treasure location and start searching from scratch. Just need to prevent abusing that to get a close treasure location, so for example make it cost 20-50c. - What you think of the difficulty of finding maps Somewhat difficult until you learn the rules, fine after that. Frustrating if you should climb the mountains or swim to another island. P.S. Oh, you meant obtaining maps, not solving them. Pretty balanced right now, you spend around 1-2 hours to get one map. Unless people use hordes of alts, then hundreds of maps accumulate faster that they can be used with current weekly limit. On the other hand that might mean some lower ql maps from those go to the market. - What you think of the difficulty in doing the maps Almost too easy even with ql90 at my level. Maybe ql80+ maps should give slightly more challenge, like 2-3 rift ogres, ql90+ like warmaster or a sea serpent. Otherwise map QL gives a good idea what lvl your Fighting should be. A-and remove fog spider horses please, they often confuse newbies. - The value of low ql maps compared to high ql Quite low. Sleep powder's overflowing, occasional rare item - not much besides that. Maybe the same exchange idea - let players exchange several low ql maps for one of a higher ql with an NPC? Like 2x QL[1,10) = 1x QL11, 2x QL[10,20) = 1x QL21 etc. |
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Post by Pandacoffee on Jul 9, 2024 7:18:03 GMT
Having completed hundreds of maps on Liberty, a few dozen on Novus, and not yet any on Infinity, I think I can provide a little insight into the current map situation as i've seen for the last 6-7 months or so.
What makes maps worth doing for you:
Maps have always been a fun way of exploring, taking you around the world you live in, and providing many opportunities to potentially loot disbanded deeds on the way, grab furniture left behind, and ultimately, a chance for some treasure! This in itself is a sentiment that Dweia and I both share, as it's also an opportunity to look at the many amazing deeds along the way that we otherwise would never have seen normally.
What would you like to see more/less of:
I echo the sentiment that lockpicks really are somewhat frustrating to find. Having completed a rare 99QL treasure map (that we spent a rare bone on due to the QL to test) only for the loot to consist of the usual sleeping powder, source, some cash, a garden gnome,lockpicks, and a returner chest, was a bit disheartening. The absence of anything of real value in that chest, aside from a temporary Wreck ward, showcased that sometimes the QL of the maps themselves, regardless of how high, have the same chance for there to be no real loot.
On the flip side however, one of the first 90QL maps Dweia and I completed, happened to have 2 strange bones, and a HOTA, and several others had sorcery items like a green cherry, or a giant walnut. So this means there should definitely be great loot in the tables.
Although, from recent experience, completing nearly 2 dozen 90QL maps has yielded almost nothing of value, save for the occasional rare item, or HOTA, it feels like maps may have happened to have a stealth nerf.
Dweia and I discussed this yesterday, and a possible item to add to the treasure chests, could be statue fragments. Simply getting 1 fragment as a potential filter item of some of lower QL maps, for a mountain lion, or statuette, to drake, eagle, etc fragments for 70+ maps, could be an option. Especially considering that eagle statues require 93 fragments, and drakes take 127. Archaeology would still be the most effective method to find those fragments, but it would also encourage trade between players who do maps to obtain some of these various statues.
Additionally, adding fragments for various other items, like santa sacks, magic waterskins, etc, needing 100 fragments to create for example, only obtainable from treasure chests could also be a fun way to go about it, with these 2 items being 2 in a much larger loot pool of random items.
What you think of the difficulty of finding maps:
Finding maps has always been fun, occasionally popping out when you chop trees, mine, or even dig. For the average player, maps may be somewhat rare to obtain, but they do stack up quite quickly if not completed days or weeks after gaining them. Additionally, players who utilize alts to dig and level terrain, myself included have found that maps really do stack up quickly when you run 5-10 chars on a land clearing project. Currently, we have over 150 incomplete maps sitting in our storage, with plans to do them at some point.
This being said, the regular trickle of maps does feel fine, though they rarely are worth doing one at a time, without several other maps to turn it into a treasure trip.
Adding ways to potentially swap out lower QL maps could definitely be a great idea, as I know sometimes you end up with 15, or 20 1QL maps with 20-50 damage per, that will never seem to be worth it, despite the possibility of a HOTA coming from a 1QL map.
What you think of the difficulty in doing the maps:
When it comes to map difficulty, i've found that after enough maps have been done, you get a solid intuition on where each map is located, based off of the first read. With this in mind, when you have several dozen maps laying around, reading each of them, marking their potential locations, and doing a batch in the same area at a time does make them alot easier to complete. However, mixing it up with random maps for longer exploration trips can also be extremely exciting.
However, despite not having done any maps on Infinity, I can also understand that the majority of players are unable to climb mountains on any server reliably, causing them to miss out on some maps they may have otherwise done, simply missing out due to lower climbing and body stamina skills.
Moving on, the mobs that you tend to face from lower QL maps to higher QL maps do varry quite a bit, but at the top-end, there has never been a 90+ QL map that has ever spawned mobs that are challenging. This does keep it extremely accessible to players who may only be at 70 FS, with half-decent armor, but for challenge-seekers, there never seems to be much of one. Potentially boosting the difficulty of the spawned mobs could be a solution, though it runs the risk of making it accessible for higher-level players only, limiting the best loot.
The value of low ql maps compared to high ql:
I have covered this several times above, but the general perception is that low QL maps (below 40) are hardly worth it, mid-QL maps (50-70) seem to have the highest chance for rares, and the high-QL maps (80+) are extremely hit and miss when it comes to the actual value.
Final thoughts:
I know this is definitely something of an essay, though I appreciate you attempting to tackle what has been a hotly contested topic for many months. With many players ceasing to do maps regularly due to percieved lower loot QL, this is definitely a step in the right direction.
The only other thing i'd like to add, is that it may help to see a loot list, of all the avaliable loot in treasure maps as it stands currently. This would remove the uncertainty of the "stealth nerf" that some players may be feeling, and display to all players what they may have a chance to get lucky with in their maps. The percentage chances don't need to be shown, as it is already assumed that it is greater than 0 anyway.
Just my thoughts on this matter!
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Post by spike on Jul 9, 2024 15:47:32 GMT
I think most things has been said about loot tables etc.
Personally I have found better items in lower QL maps (40-60) than in the few 80+ ql maps I have done.
I also found it pretty annoying that there is a cooldown on the maps I can do per week. I tend to pile them up till I have enough higher ql maps and then do them all at once.
I get it that without any limits there will be a economical impact that needs to be controlled.
What about you just limit the number of 40+ QL maps one can do per week. The lower ql drops should not damage the economy that much as it is mostly just a few coins and a sleep powder.
That will work very well for myself to go and grab the bunch of very low ql maps while you on the way to find a higher ql map.
An alternative is to limit the total ql of maps one can do. you can do more low ql maps than high ql maps.
Another thing I have noticed that the mobs does not scale properly with the ql of the maps. This has not effected me much but I am sure it will for players with less FS and lesser gear.
Fighting 5 lesser mobs can be more dangerous than 2 stronger mobs if yo can't kill them fast enough. I do not want to see to many stronger mobs on a high ql map either. Some of the maps I found is on terrible places
on mountains where it is almost impossible to run away and heal up and try again. So having to many beasts on you at the same time could get you killed.
Once I had the situation where one of the mobs did not attract me but wondered of a bit onto a high slope and it was a real mission to get to it to kill it.
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Wurmhole
Villager
Posts: 43
Ingame Name: Darquan
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Post by Wurmhole on Jul 10, 2024 13:02:18 GMT
I've never done a map, as I feel I'm always in the middle of some big project that is just far more important to tackle, so I've accumulated quite a pile of them. I'm excited to do them eventually. HOWEVER, one thing makes me a bit sad and that is what Spike says above - cooldown timer on maps is a drag. I don't like mechanics that make me feel like the "use it or lose it" is always looming over my head. The SB cap of 5hrs is the same for me. Is there a good reason to cap how many maps we can do?
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Post by Wreck on Jul 10, 2024 14:49:27 GMT
I find loot maps not worth it sometimes due to RNG of the map placement, so it makes the others feel less interesting and I wind up just fueling my forge with the remainder when that happens. It's very annoying to be out trying to get to a map for hours to find out it's on top of a mountain and very difficult or in Infinity's case impossible sometimes due to lack of terraforming and road network. It's even more annoying if you do make it to that loot box to find the loot is terrible, so you spend hours for junk lol.
In summary...
I'd like to see if it was possible to change the difficulty of map locations based on QL of the map, so a 99ql map might be on top of a mountain but a 10ql map could be right in front of you. Yes, distance a factor too. Furthermore, perhaps we could tie in a skill to it as well. So while a 90ql map might be hard to find, if you had X skill (arch or digging or mining I dunno), it would cut down the difficulty some.
OR
Just a blanket elevation height maximum could help. Anything to help limit the chances of a map being in a ridiculous place that would take all day to find would be helpful.
I like the idea of loot maps. It gives you a chance to go out and explore. It's far better than the vanilla version of treasure, which is highly competitive and makes the casual loot hunters come up empty handed most of the time. The loot maps at least give everyone a chance to find something which is great. I think with some minor modifications, we can certainly improve it without tipping the scales of balance too much.
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Post by mordraug on Jul 12, 2024 2:44:18 GMT
Honestly, what kills them for me is the absolutely absolute random randomness.
A full day of killing nonstop can score 5 or no maps (side note: I don't think gorillas and hyenas are dropping them at all).
As for the loot tables, as other said, a q30-60 at least gives the odd hota or lmc. Q90's, I've learned to expect junk and a bit o' extra copper, either something's bugged or the loot list is too massive at this point.
The drops went south after pets and socketed jewelry (got tons of THAT) got added. While on the subject, pet treats have become nearly non-existent since the jewelry was added, and given that the size increments are TINY, the lootmap rng took the fun out of the pet system.
Haven't wurmed all week and haven't missed it. Was hunting for 100FS mainly, but almost every map ended up feeling like I should have just stuck to leveling instead.
My final gripe would have to be each map having its individual timer. Finally joined the 8-5 dark side, if I run my 10 maps on friday night, next weekend it'll be starting saturday morning (well, assuming one would be able to accumulate 10 in a week without a solid 50hrs' play), then saturday afternoon, etc... too restrictive.
And lastly, that weekly limit basically punishes anyone who doesn't have a few extra Steam accounts under their belts. At least treasure chests were way more proportional to the time you put into it.
Anyhoo, my 2c. Pardon the "hate", most of my tone is from the week I've had.
Cheers!
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Post by Dominikk on Jul 22, 2024 17:02:56 GMT
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Post by stargrace on Jul 22, 2024 23:29:56 GMT
I'm newly returned, maps were a thing when I played last but they were *brand* new and have gone through a few revisions from what I can see. Anyway, I've done three maps since my return. One was 1ql and insane on top of a mountain (I found this map randomly on a highway, I don't know how it got there, or why it was there, but the end point was basically the other side of the map). One was 30ql and meh, not too far, nothing really to note. I didn't get the lockpicks that everyone was commenting on. The third was 56ql and also very meh, a few silver, some sleep powder, a barrel of source.
I love treasure maps in WO, and have done hundreds of them. I find them difficult to do in WU due to the randomness of them "run out 1,000 tiles, somewhere to your left" when there may not be roads or a good way to get there. The 1ql one I had, sent me to 1 tile away from the PVP section of liberty, which is a pain in the arse to get to if you're trying to avoid being flagged pvp... It's full of mountains, and awkward. I'm not a new player so thankfully I have good climbing skill, but a 1ql map shouldn't be doing that to anyone. I know that there's a 'chance' that a 1ql map could have some great loot, but yikes.
I didn't get any jewelry, and I like getting sleep powder. I honestly don't really have an issue with the loot in them, but the randomness is ... really random. I also haven't done hundreds, and while I know there's some super uber hardcore folks out there, I don't think every decision on these maps should be based on the 1% because not all of us are seeing those huge numbers or having issues with what's dropping. I like wreck's idea of having a height limitation, and I love the idea of seeing the loot cooldown status timer thing (I didn't even know there was a cooldown timer). I don't think everything has to appeal to everyone. Some folks will love doing them and do them for pennies, some won't.
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Post by stargrace on Jul 31, 2024 22:14:03 GMT
This was the result of an 82ql map I had to fight two rift creatures, a hell scorpious, and a croc. It was on a cliff, with no way to access by wagon or cart, up a mountain with no roads. 36 slope all around. I was NOT happy with this. It was horrible.  All of that, for a HORSE EGG?!   Sigh. |
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